Comments on: That decision http://johnorr.me.uk/2009/05/24/that-decision/ Random mutterings and musings of mine - a work in progress Mon, 23 Jan 2012 20:43:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: John http://johnorr.me.uk/2009/05/24/that-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-3961 John Tue, 26 May 2009 09:27:18 +0000 http://johnorr.me.uk/?p=369#comment-3961 Hi Nelu, Thanks for clarifying. I see what you're getting at now. Hi Nelu,
Thanks for clarifying. I see what you’re getting at now.

]]> By: Nelu http://johnorr.me.uk/2009/05/24/that-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-3959 Nelu Tue, 26 May 2009 09:02:05 +0000 http://johnorr.me.uk/?p=369#comment-3959 John, I probably did not express myself clear enough. David refered to some specific areas which indicate how the church was 'leading' the society. I am very suspicious of power and authority. They corrupt. In some way my point sought to align with your statement that the church should be prophetic: speaking the truth to power and society, and standing along the marginalised and oppressed. As David pointed out the church of Scotland was at the forefront in changing attitudes in society, and political habits, to be truthful. But often in the recent past the church has actually been shamed by the 'secular' society, as I said, in particular in equality. I have worked in equality area for the church for 6 years and I often had to bow my head when attending meeting, conferences, etc. where 'secular' bodies were leading the 'prophecy'. You probably recall the session on disability we had in one of the candidates' conferences. John, I probably did not express myself clear enough. David refered to some specific areas which indicate how the church was ‘leading’ the society. I am very suspicious of power and authority. They corrupt. In some way my point sought to align with your statement that the church should be prophetic: speaking the truth to power and society, and standing along the marginalised and oppressed. As David pointed out the church of Scotland was at the forefront in changing attitudes in society, and political habits, to be truthful. But often in the recent past the church has actually been shamed by the ‘secular’ society, as I said, in particular in equality. I have worked in equality area for the church for 6 years and I often had to bow my head when attending meeting, conferences, etc. where ‘secular’ bodies were leading the ‘prophecy’.
You probably recall the session on disability we had in one of the candidates’ conferences.

]]> By: David http://johnorr.me.uk/2009/05/24/that-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-3949 David Mon, 25 May 2009 19:13:16 +0000 http://johnorr.me.uk/?p=369#comment-3949 Interesting stuff. It;s worth noting in passing that many of the great reforming moments in secular society have been led by Christians....Wilberforce, Fry, MLK... Lochcarron withdrew their overture today, but I have some sympathy with them in that they were hamstrung at every turn. I write this having just returned from Edinburgh and the passions are running a bit high.. In essence the GA have put back formal decisions for two years to allow a special commission to consult and report back in 2011. The debate is far from resolved, and at one point today, writing this would have brought me under the discipline of the church ! You summarise Saturday's debate pretty well. Just goes to show that you can't belive what you read in the papers, especially certain Sunday ones ! Interesting stuff. It;s worth noting in passing that many of the great reforming moments in secular society have been led by Christians….Wilberforce, Fry, MLK…
Lochcarron withdrew their overture today, but I have some sympathy with them in that they were hamstrung at every turn. I write this having just returned from Edinburgh and the passions are running a bit high.. In essence the GA have put back formal decisions for two years to allow a special commission to consult and report back in 2011. The debate is far from resolved, and at one point today, writing this would have brought me under the discipline of the church !
You summarise Saturday’s debate pretty well. Just goes to show that you can’t belive what you read in the papers, especially certain Sunday ones !

]]> By: John http://johnorr.me.uk/2009/05/24/that-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-3948 John Mon, 25 May 2009 09:32:12 +0000 http://johnorr.me.uk/?p=369#comment-3948 Hi Nelu, You're quite correct. Society has indeed often been more 'advanced' than the church in many areas. However, my point, albeit poorly expressed, is that it is not the church's role to simply follow whatever society is doing and thereby endorse it. Mrs G suggests that the church must lead, but in many instances the church must be reactionary as its duty is, first and foremost, to follow God. In so doing, it undoubtedly will take a lead at times. It's treatment of the poor or those with illnesses, whilst not always exemplary, has often been in the vanguard of social conscience and response. But nevertheless, it must not be led by society. I'm also not convinced that it must 'lead' society. To do so implies a position of authority rather than that of servant. But it also cannot simply tag along  and be reactive. The church has a distinctive role to play. By being proactive in our communities, rather than simply reactive, the church can be a leader or guide or example. But, above all, by being distinctive, rather than simply becoming another facet of established society, it can stand over and against that which it encounters and continue to be a prophetic voice. Hi Nelu,
You’re quite correct. Society has indeed often been more ‘advanced’ than the church in many areas. However, my point, albeit poorly expressed, is that it is not the church’s role to simply follow whatever society is doing and thereby endorse it. Mrs G suggests that the church must lead, but in many instances the church must be reactionary as its duty is, first and foremost, to follow God. In so doing, it undoubtedly will take a lead at times. It’s treatment of the poor or those with illnesses, whilst not always exemplary, has often been in the vanguard of social conscience and response. But nevertheless, it must not be led by society. I’m also not convinced that it must ‘lead’ society. To do so implies a position of authority rather than that of servant. But it also cannot simply tag along  and be reactive. The church has a distinctive role to play. By being proactive in our communities, rather than simply reactive, the church can be a leader or guide or example. But, above all, by being distinctive, rather than simply becoming another facet of established society, it can stand over and against that which it encounters and continue to be a prophetic voice.

]]> By: Nelu http://johnorr.me.uk/2009/05/24/that-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-3946 Nelu Mon, 25 May 2009 08:44:05 +0000 http://johnorr.me.uk/?p=369#comment-3946 John, There are many examples where churches had to catch up with secular society: i.e. treatment of women. Until the 19th century the church (in general in the west, and in particular in Scotland) was at the forefront of social 'advancement' (I know it could be seen as a controversial statement). Unfortunately in terms of equality the church today still needs to catch up with the secular society, which in many instances can be said are closer to the spirit of Christ than some practices in most of the churches. John,
There are many examples where churches had to catch up with secular society: i.e. treatment of women. Until the 19th century the church (in general in the west, and in particular in Scotland) was at the forefront of social ‘advancement’ (I know it could be seen as a controversial statement). Unfortunately in terms of equality the church today still needs to catch up with the secular society, which in many instances can be said are closer to the spirit of Christ than some practices in most of the churches.

]]> By: Mrs Gerbil http://johnorr.me.uk/2009/05/24/that-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-3945 Mrs Gerbil Mon, 25 May 2009 07:21:35 +0000 http://johnorr.me.uk/?p=369#comment-3945 I, too, thought the press (as usual) had misreported Saturday's decission. The "big" decission, in my opinion, is today's, based on the overture. As regards life and doctrine of ministers - that has always been vague enough to be open to intepretation. That said, I do agree marriage is most appropriate for a minister in a sexual relationship. Whether marriage is interpreted in a more liberal sense as also including civil partnerships...that I think is something GA <strong>needs</strong> to discuss. That said, there has been a lot of assuming Scott Rennie is in a sexual reationship with his partner. I'll leave that open, though. I complelely agree about the twitter comment. That is not what the church should ever be for, no matter what the secular issue of the day is. The church should be leading society, not the other way around. Also, the church is very relevant to the world during the current ethical and moral crisis, we just need to show the world how much we are relevant. That can only be done through unity, with each other to lead the world through this crisis. We can't do that when we bicker among ourselves... I, too, thought the press (as usual) had misreported Saturday’s decission. The “big” decission, in my opinion, is today’s, based on the overture.

As regards life and doctrine of ministers – that has always been vague enough to be open to intepretation. That said, I do agree marriage is most appropriate for a minister in a sexual relationship. Whether marriage is interpreted in a more liberal sense as also including civil partnerships…that I think is something GA needs to discuss. That said, there has been a lot of assuming Scott Rennie is in a sexual reationship with his partner. I’ll leave that open, though.

I complelely agree about the twitter comment. That is not what the church should ever be for, no matter what the secular issue of the day is. The church should be leading society, not the other way around. Also, the church is very relevant to the world during the current ethical and moral crisis, we just need to show the world how much we are relevant. That can only be done through unity, with each other to lead the world through this crisis. We can’t do that when we bicker among ourselves…

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